Brian Cody on Paul Shefflin: ‘It’s just an absolute tragedy’

KILKENNY MANAGER BRIAN Cody has paid tribute to former Ballyhale Shamrocks player Paul Shefflin who passed away on Friday.

The younger brother of Henry Shefflin died while out running and news of his passing sent shockwaves through the local community.  

A minute silence was held for the 40-year-old father of four before yesterday’s Division 1B hurling tie between Kilkenny and Dublin in Parnell Park.

The Cats prevailed by 2-23 to 0-16, and afterwards Cody said: “It’s so sad for everybody concerned.

“He was a very good hurler, obviously a terrific club player and underage with Kilkenny as well and Fitzgibbon (Cup). It’s just an absolute tragedy.”

Speaking to RTÉ prior to the game, he said: “It’s a really, really sad time for Ballyhale, Kilkenny and the whole hurling community everywhere.

“The Shefflin family are synonymous with the game, and Paul was a terrific hurler himself and obviously just a really popular figure.”

Shefflin won three All-Ireland club titles and six Kilkenny crowns with Ballyhale during his career.

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“When the news trickled through, you were just asking yourself, ‘Why?’ said Jackie Tyrrell.

“All the things you alluded to – a great clubman, a family man. Possibly because of Henry’s success, his achievements may have been overshadowed. But you look at his list there – three club All-Irelands, a real great clubman, a coach and a treasurer there.

“I played against Paul a few times. A tough cookie, but a gentleman off the hurling field. It’s such a sad, sad day for a community like Ballyhale that have had a lot of tragedies, down through the years.”

Henry Shefflin was absent from the sideline yesterday for Galway’s defeat to Cork as he comes to term with the tragic passing.

Ballyhale’s Paul Shefflin celebrates with the Leinster club title in 2014.

Source: James Crombie/INPHO

Richie O’Neill, who was previously involved with Paul as part of Henry’s Ballyhale backroom team, assumed management duties for the day and he spoke afterwards about his shock at the sudden death. 

“It was shocking to get the call yesterday, the tragedy that had come on Paul, Ballyhale and the Shefflin family,” he told RTÉ.

“An absolutely brilliant chap. I got involved with Ballyhale with Henry in 2018 and Paul was just a real rock-steady solid guy in the parish and in the club.

“He carried the hurleys for us in the senior team. If you were looking for a dig out to make 15 v 15 in an internal game he’d tog out and play and was as competitive as ever.

“He was a really good guy in the community. He has young kids now and was involved in training the underage in the club.

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Galway selector Richie O’Neill speaks to the media before the Cork game.

Source: Laszlo Geczo/INPHO

“One of those guys you need around in every club and for something like that to happen is just unthinkable really, for his wife Aoife and his four kids it’s unthinkable.

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“It makes you rethink things definitely. We all get caught running around, stressing about things that maybe aren’t worth stressing about.

“In Ballyhale, when I was there for the two years there were other tragedies (as well). We used to say that life can be cruel but sport is our outlet.”

Originally published at 10.00

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Fermanagh and Longford seal wins, St Kieran’s end Tulla’s historic journey

Results

Croke Cup Semi-final

St Joseph’s Tulla 1-11 St Kieran’s 3-16

Allianz Football League Division 3

Longford 0-14 Westmeath 0-10

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Fermanagh 3-15 Laois 3-9  

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IN TODAY’S REFIXED Allianz Football League games, there were wins in Division 3 for Longford and Fermanagh. 

Billy O’Loughlin’s Longford eased their relegation fears with a 0-15 to 0-10 win over Westmeath, denting the promotion hopes of their neighbours in the process. 

Driven on by Mickey Quinn, Longford shot six points in success during the second period  before Westmeath finished the game with 13 men. David Lynch was red carded seven times from time and Kieran Martin picked up a black card in injury-time. 

Fermanagh won their second game on the bounce, seeing off Laois in a six-goal thriller. They won by 3-15 to 3-9 after three-pointers from Sean Quigley, Ciaran Corrigan and Darragh McGurn. Laois hit the net through a brace from Mark Barry and one form Evan O’Carroll, but it wasn’t enough. 

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In the Croke Cup semi-final, Kilkenny side St Kieran’s College sealed a return to the All-Ireland post primary schools senior hurling championship final with a 3-16 to 1-11 win against St Joseph’s Tulla.

The Clare outfit were shock winners of the Harty Cup earlier this year but their historic run ended today. St Kieran’s led by four at half-time as Brian Dowling (2) and Donagh Murphy scored goals in the second period.

They’ll face Ardscoil Rís in the final after the Limerick school saw off Wexford’s Good Counsel in the other semi-final.

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Wexford overcome strong Offaly challenge to maintain 100% record

Wexford 1-22
Offaly 2-12

Ronan Fagan reports from Chadwicks Wexford Park

WEXFORD PRODUCED A late flourish to add to Offaly’s relegation worries after Saturday’s Allianz National Hurling League Division 1 duel at blustery Chadwicks Wexford Park.

A 48th minute penalty goal from Luke O’Connor gave Offaly a fighting chance of a first victory in Group A on their return to the top-flight as they battled into a 2-10 to 1-12 advantage.

But Wexford overcame a troubled display with a strong closing surge, accounting for ten of the last twelve points to maintain their push for the league semi-finals with a 100% record under new boss Darragh Egan.

Offaly must now win on the road against Limerick if they are to have any chance of avoiding the relegation play-off.

But after hammerings against Galway, Cork and Clare, the midlanders offered plenty of encouragement in this latest outing, which was preceded by an immaculate minute’s silence for Paul Shefflin, a Ballyhale Shamrocks’ club-mate of Offaly manager Michael Fennelly who passed suddenly.

Wind-assisted Offaly boosted their boss’s spirits as they crafted a 1-3 to 0-2 advantage when Luke O’Connor netted in the thirteenth minute after being located unmarked by a smart cross from Paddy Clancy.

Wexford’s Laurie Foley tackles David Nally of Offaly.

Source: Bryan Keane/INPHO

Wexford were underwhelming. But the free-taking of Rory O’Connor and a Diarmuid O’Keeffe equaliser hauled them back level after 21 minutes (0-6 to 1-3).

However, despite incurring a booking for a late challenge in the build up to the O’Keeffe leveller, Offaly midfielder Adrian Cleary immediately restored their advantage which climbed to 1-6 to 0-6 after 25 minutes.

But Wexford transformed matters by 1-8 to 1-7 at half-time after Rory O’Connor burst in from the extreme left to ram to the net with an equalising goal before tagging on the lead score from an injury-time free.

A quick Luke O’Connor double saw Offaly reassert by 1-9 to 1-8 after 39 minutes.

And a foul on Eoghan Parlon paved the way for O’Connor to drill home a 48th minute penalty to lead 2-9 to 1-10. And after Wexford tied matters for a fifth time, O’Connor nudged Offaly back in front on 55 minutes (2-10 to 1-12).

Wexford eventually shook off their lethargy as they produced an unstoppable late charge, Rory O’Connor, substitute Connal Flood and corner-back Conor Devitt fashioning a 1-15 to 2-10 transformation after 57 minutes.

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They maintained the thrust, with O’Connor forcing a fine save while teenager Corey Byrne-Dunbar rounded off the scoring on his league debut with a point as Wexford came good to leave Offaly frustrated after a promising effort.

Scorers for Wexford: Rory O’Connor (1-11, 0-9 frees), Connal Flood, Conor McDonald, Kevin Foley (0-2 each), Diarmuid O’Keeffe, Liam Óg McGovern, Conor Devitt, Jack O’Connor, Corey Byrne-Dunbar (0-1 each).

Scorers for Offaly: Luke O’Connor (2-6, 1-0 penalty, 0-4 frees), Adrian Cleary, Joey Keenaghan (0-2 each), Paddy Clancy, Stephen Corcoran (0-1 free).

Wexford

1. James Lawlor (Ferns St Aidan’s)

2. Shane Reck (Oylegate-Glenbrien), 3. Matthew O’Hanlon (St James’), 4. Conor Devitt (Tara Rocks)

5. Gavin Bailey (Ferns St Aidan’s), 6. Damien Reck (Oylegate-Glenbrien), 9. Diarmuid O’Keeffe (St Anne’s)

12. Conor Hearne (Shelmaliers), 7. Jack O’Connor (St Martin’s)

10. Charlie McGuckin (Naomh Eanna), 11. Oisín Foley (Crossabeg-Ballymurn), 8. Kevin Foley (Rapparees, capt.)

15. Rory Higgins (Rathnure St Anne’s), 14. Conor McDonald (Naomh Eanna), 13. Rory O’Connor (St Martin’s)

Subs:

26. Liam Óg McGovern (St Anne’s) for McGuckin (42)

21. Corey Byrne Dunbar (Ferns St Aidan’s) for Higgins (42)

23. Connal Flood (Cloughbawn) for Bailey (44)

24. Paudie Foley (Crossabeg-Ballymurn) for McDonald (62)

18. Cian Byrne (Fethard) for Hearne (66)

Offaly

1 Stephen Corcoran (Coolderry)

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4 Paddy Delaney (Kinnitty), 3 Ben Conneely (St. Rynagh’s, capt.), 2 Jack Screeney (Kilcormac-Killoughey)

7 Killian Sampson (Shinrone), 6 David King (Coolderry), 5 Ciarán Burke (Durrow)

8 Joey Keenaghan (Clodiagh Gaels), 23 Adrian Cleary (Shinrone)

10 Brian Duignan (Durrow), 11 Jason Sampson (Shrinone), 12 Eoghan Parlon (Coolderry)

15 Luke O’Connor (St. Rynagh’s), 14 Paddy Clancy (Belmont), 13 Liam Langton (Clodiagh Gaels)

Subs:

9 Eimhin Kelly (Lusmagh) for Delaney (HT)

25 John Murphy (Ballinamere) for Duignan (48)

22 David Nally (Belmont) for Langton (62)

17 Pádraig Cantwell (Shamrocks) for Clancy (67)

24 Morgan Watkins (Birr) for Parlon (70)

Referee: Nathan Wall (Cork)

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‘I know in the back of my mind I was good enough, and I am good enough’

THE PHONE CALL came out of the blue. A few days beforehand, Monica McGuirk had made the decision to take a break from one sport.

This was at the start of 2018. An accomplished goalkeeper in the Women’s National League [WNL] at the time, she was stepping away from the top-flight of women’s soccer on these shores. Temporarily, anyway.

“I just decided, ‘Look, I’m just giving soccer a break. I just maybe need to reset and look at it again in a year or two,’” she explains ahead of today’s mouth-watering Division 1B league meeting with Dublin, a repeat of last year’s All-Ireland final.

“I hadn’t decided to focus on Gaelic or anything like that, it was just a decision I made myself.

“I’d say within a week [Meath manager] Eamonn Murray got wind that I wasn’t playing soccer so he was straight on the phone to me, and he was like, ‘Just give me two weeks and see how you go. If you like it, you like it, and if not, you can walk away from it.’ 

“And I haven’t looked back.”

An All-Ireland senior crown, two All-Stars and plenty more medals and accolades later, she’s happy to do so for the purpose of this interview.

McGuirk had always balanced both, but up to that point, soccer came first. That was a well-known and widely-accepted fact. She played underage Gaelic football with Meath, and had been in and out of the senior set-up since 2009 or 2010. 

Irene Munnelly was the Royals’ number one, an All-Star arriving for the long-serving ‘keeper in 2011. Her understudy was swayed towards association football, signing for Peamount in late 2012. 

Reaching the FAI Cup final and lining out in the Aviva Stadium in 2014 was a certain highlight, though Peas were beaten 2-1 by Raheny United. Ireland captain Katie McCabe scored a sensational free-kick that day — “That was me alright. Horrible,” McGuirk laughs — while she had the best possible view of one of the most famous goals in the history of Irish football: directly in line with Stephanie Roche’s Puskas wonder-strike.

Two seasons at UCD Waves followed her time at Peamount, before she made a brief return to Greenogue. She caught the eye in the league week in, week out, so much so that she was called up for Ireland trials, but a coveted call-up never materialised.

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Dejection in the closing stages of the 2014 FAI Cup final.

Source: Donall Farmer/INPHO

“At the end of 2017, the beginning of 2018. I just said, ‘Look, I’ve had enough now,’” McGuirk recalls. “My soccer career wasn’t going the way I wanted it to go, they weren’t pushing me to the limits that I felt I needed to be pushed to.

“I was constantly getting knockbacks, not getting selected for the Irish team and stuff like that. I wasn’t getting selected but yet I was able to turn around and play with the same players in the National League. D’you know what I mean? I was basically told I wasn’t good enough.

“I got callbacks to the last stages of everything and then just being told [no] at the last thing. A lot of it was to do with certain things like I needed to get fit or I’d have to lose weight, things like that.

“I’m just like, ‘This is me. If this is not what you want, then that’s fine, I’ll understand that.’ I’m a bigger person, I know who I am. But like, I’m strong. I had those knockbacks – I wouldn’t say that’s the reason why I gave up soccer, I kept going at it. I was still 26/27, I still gave it a good 10, 12 years. But it was the best decision I ever made.”

It came shortly after that fateful phone call with Murray, who had taken over as Meath boss at the end of 2017.

Munnelly had retired by then, and while a couple of goalkeepers were coming and going, there was no nailed-down replacement with the 2018 National League already underway.

“Not that he was under orders not to ring me, but he knew my situation,” McGuirk grins.

“I was playing for Peamount in Dublin, and I live in Duleek. That is a separate commitment, it’s nearly the same as Meath. There’s one or two girls that currently do it in the National League now, the likes of Lucy McCartan from Westmeath.

“If it works for her, it works for her, but I don’t think it would work for me personally. The commitment was too much. And you’ve no personal life. None of your own time to do your own thing.”

She admits that she could have easily fallen away from sport altogether, as so often happens, left disillusioned and disenfranchised after putting so much in for so little in return. 

But thankfully, McGuirk has gotten it all back in spades since her 100% commitment to Gaelic football. 

In September 2018, she switched one national stadium for another and graced the hallowed turf of Croke Park. She did the same 12 months later; back-to-back All-Ireland intermediate finals ending in heartbreaking defeat to Tyrone and Tipperary respectively.

It was in the pre-Christmas Covid finals of 2020 that the Royals finally got their hands on the Mary Quinn Memorial Cup and achieved promotion back to the senior ranks. And we all know what happened thereafter, simply stratospheric heights hit in 2021.

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McGuirk celebrating Meath’s goal in the 2021 All-Ireland final.

Source: Laszlo Geczo/INPHO

Celtic Crosses and a pair of All-Star awards – from 2019 and 2021 – now sit in McGuirk’s cabinet, taking pride of place after her up-and-down journey to this point.

The Duleek Bellewstown clubwoman, who works as an Operations Manager in Aura Leisure Management’s site in Drogheda, does keep in touch with former team-mates and other figures from the previous chapter.

“They obviously see what I’ve achieved through social media and stuff like that as well,” she adds. “It’s selfish even for myself to know that I was able to go and perfect it in this sport.

“I know in the back of my mind, I was good enough and I am good enough. I didn’t just get the two All-Stars because they were given to me. D’you know what I mean? I feel like I’ve proved to myself now that I know I was good enough.”

It’s fair to say that she’s had the last laugh after the setbacks, and that the success and personal accolades, in particular, hold that extra bit of significance?

“Yeah,” McGuirk smiles. “Especially the first one [All-Star]. The first one obviously, I didn’t have all the girls there. I was intermediate. I just felt I was voted and that was it.

“I felt honored just to be up there among the best, but then when they called out my name, I could not believe it. We didn’t win the All-Ireland that year either. And then to get one this year along with the other seven players was amazing, that was just a great night.”

A great night, indeed, and given the upward trajectory McGuirk’s career is on, there should be many more on the horizon.

– Meath v Dublin, Páirc Tailteann, Navan, throw-in 4pm, live on TG4.

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‘Tough to manage but good too’ – Balancing hockey for Ireland with Croke Park final prep

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THE ALL-IRELAND CLUB camogie final is coming at a good time for Eoghan Rua forward, and Irish hockey international, Katie Mullan.

Eoghan Rua’s Katie Mullan.

If the season had been any longer, she might not have been able to keep committing to both teams. On the day she speaks to the media — one week out from her Derry club’s junior A decider against Clanmaurice of Kerry — she’s in the middle of a training camp with the Ireland hockey team.

The Green Army has a hectic few months ahead as they prepare for the women’s hockey world cup in July.

It’s a tight operation, no doubt, but Mullan is blessed to have the support of her colleagues in both squads to keep all the plates spinning.

“I’m sitting in a changing room on Irish camp right now,” she explains.

“I’m playing pretty full on hockey at the minute. We’re in camp now for three days and we were away in France two weeks ago. We were flying to France the day after the Ulster final, so it’s pretty tough to manage but it’s been good too.

“I just manage it very well with my club coach. The good thing is that the girls in my club team are very understanding, so the main thing for me is to get out on the wall ball with camogie. I go to training and do a lot more of the skill based stuff because I’m getting my physical training in with the hockey.

“So it’s just a real understanding and collaboration, which again, for to support any athlete or any kid playing multiple sports, you need that collaboration between coaches which I’ve had a fantastic experience of the last couple of months.”

Up until the end of last year, hockey was Mullan’s one and only sport. She played camogie as a youngster, and combined it with hockey for a time. But as she grew up and the opportunity to be a dual athlete became less accessible to her, she could only focus on one.

Sticking with hockey proved to be a fruitful one. Mullan captained her country through an amazing World Cup campaign in 2018 which turned hockey into a household favourite for a short spell. Ireland went into that tournament as the second-lowest ranked side, but emerged as silver medalists after reaching the final.

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The following year, Mullan’s Ireland qualified for the Olympics for the first time after a dramatic qualifier against Canada in Donnybrook.

But last October, while attending the Derry intermediate camogie county final where her Eoghan Rua side defeated Newbridge, she felt something stir in her.

“I just really got an itch to be back playing camogie,” Mullan recalls about resuming her playing career with Eoghan Rua who were back-to-back All-Ireland intermediate champions in 2010 and 2011.

“So that was when the wee seed was planted, and it’s been quite a good year and quite a good run. It’s in the last month that it’s sort of really clashed for me, but with an understanding coach, with it being an All-Ireland, he’s been very supportive in that.

“I think if it was going on for much longer, I’m not sure I could have managed it but, yeah, very understanding.

“It’s been quite an intense few years with hockey and going away and speaking to my coach about that, I sort of asked if I could go back and play a bit of camogie. A lot of the girls I had played with 10, 11 years ago are still there playing for that team. A lot of them are my close friends so he was quite supportive of me doing that from a mental perspective.

“But also, I suppose, after the Olympics and sort of the comedown from the Olympics, and a break in our Irish hockey training programme after the qualifier in October, I was quite keen to do something different.”

Katie Mullan with her silver medal after the World Cup.

Source: Morgan Treacy/INPHO

In the time that Mullan has been away from the sport, she has noticed some changes in the way camogie is played. The endurance levels have increased and the game has become more physical.

Tactically, it’s a different sport to her now too.

“I think camogie players are a lot less stuck in positions, so you’re covering an awful lot more ground and you’re not necessarily in a little 10×10 yard zone, which was maybe the case the last time I played.

“And I know from a skills perspective, I was a huge one for dropping the hurl and getting the handpass away from my right hand. So, I’ve been blown up a few times for that just because it sort of happens instinctively.

“The girls are having to give out to me a bit for that, but it’s loads of fun and even just bringing across a small number of ideas from the game of hockey into the world of camogie, the girls have been super receptive, and I’ve enjoyed that too.

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“There’s so much crossover [between hockey and camogie] from things within a team culture and high performance environment that don’t even relate to the specific skills of the game, that I think can be transferred to many different sports.

“It’s fantastic and the most important thing is that I’m getting to play with girls I grew up in the club with, and I’m getting to pull on the club jersey with them again, which is very special to me.”

Eoghan Rua have just the week to prepare for the All-Ireland final. Their semi-final meeting with Roscommon’s Athleague was originally scheduled for 19 February, but the inclement weather forced a postponement until last Saturday.

It was a tough arm wrestle for much of the contest, with Eoghan Rua leading by just two points in the 15th minute of the second half. But the Ulster club managed to pull away and sign off with a 1-12 to 0-6 win to send them through to the decider.

The team are in good shape after that battle, and explains that travelling the short distance to Letterkenny for the Athleague game has improved their recovery time before meeting Clanmaurice this weekend.

Mullan has said in the past that she always wanted to go back to play camogie at some point, but she believed that it would be after she finished up with playing hockey for Ireland.

Taking the decision to make an earlier return to the sport could result in another All-Ireland crown for Eoghan Rua.

“I never thought it would be something I could do while still playing international hockey.

“It very much just happened naturally and I’m so grateful that it has. And just the way the season has unfolded, a lot of the camógs maybe don’t enjoy winter camogie, and it’s not their first choice. But for me, I’m really enjoying it so I’m very grateful.”

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What Trump said about Covid-19 in private versus what he said in public

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President Donald Trump seemed to have very different things to say about Covid-19 when he spoke in public — at press conferences and TV appearances — than when he spoke to journalist Bob Woodward one-on-one.

In public comments, Trump took a tone that downplayed the coronavirus — making it seem like the virus would go away quickly, and emphasizing the need to reopen the country to try to get the economy going again.

With Woodward, Trump warned about the risks of the virus in frank and scary terms, calling it “the plague,” acknowledging it’s deadlier than the flu, and saying it could spread by air.

This was, apparently, deliberate. As Trump also told Woodward on March 19, “I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down, because I don’t want to create a panic.”

Of course, this is not how viruses work. While Trump tried to downplay the risks, Covid-19 continued to spread across America. As of September 16, the nation has reported more than 6.6 million confirmed cases and nearly 200,000 deaths. It still reports the most daily new coronavirus deaths out of any developed country.

“There was a failure to realize what an efficiently spreading respiratory virus for which we have no vaccine and no antiviral meant,” Amesh Adalja, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, previously told me. “From the very beginning, that minimization … set a tone that reverberated from the highest levels of government to what the average person believes about the virus.”

In other words, Trump’s deception left America unprepared for the virus. The president claimed it was intentional, part of an attempt to keep the country upbeat. But we now know we were misled — to deadly results.

“Deadly stuff” versus “It’s going to disappear”

In February, Trump told Woodward that the virus was “deadly stuff,” more dangerous than the flu and potentially transmitting through the air. (CNN has audio recordings of Trump’s comments.)

February 7, to Woodward: “It goes through air, Bob. That’s always tougher than the touch. You know, the touch, you don’t have to touch things, right? But the air, you just breathe the air, and that’s how it’s passed. And so that’s a very tricky one, that’s a very delicate one. It’s also more deadly than your — you know, your, even your strenuous flus. … This is more deadly. This is five per — you know, this is five percent versus one percent and less than one percent. You know? So this is deadly stuff.”

Yet in public, Trump took a very different tone. He consistently suggested that the virus was under control, soon to disappear “like a miracle.” In early March, Trump totally contradicted his comments to Woodward by suggesting the coronavirus was less deadly than the flu.

January 30, in a speech: “We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five. And those people are all recuperating successfully.”

February 26, at a press conference: “When you have 15 people [infected by the coronavirus in the US], and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

February 27, at a White House meeting: “It’s going to disappear. One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”

March 9, on Twitter: “So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!”

Acknowledging the risks to the young — but cheering for packed churches

Later in March, Trump acknowledged to Woodward that the coronavirus could affect not just old people but young people, too. But he added that he prefers to downplay the threat.

March 19, to Woodward: “Now it’s turning out it’s not just old people, Bob. Just today and yesterday, some startling facts came out. It’s not just old, older. Young people too — plenty of young people. … I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down, because I don’t want to create a panic.”

In public, Trump soon started suggesting the economy should take priority over dealing with Covid-19, continuing to suggest that the virus wasn’t a major threat to the US. He even said that the recently initiated lockdowns and stay-at-home orders could end by Easter (on April 12).

March 22, on Twitter: “WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD, WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!”

March 24, on Fox News: “Easter’s a very special day for me. … You’ll have packed churches all over our country. … I think it’ll be a beautiful time.”

“This thing is a killer” vs. “LIBERATE MINNESOTA!”

In April, Trump described the coronavirus in terrifying terms to Woodward.

April 13, to Woodward: “This thing is a killer if it gets you. If you’re the wrong person, you don’t have a chance. … So this rips you apart. … It is the plague.”

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That was quite different from what Trump was saying in public at the time, indicating that the virus was already well on its way to defeat in the US. He soon after sent his “LIBERATE” tweets, demanding that states reopen their economies.

April 10, on Twitter: “The Invisible Enemy will soon be in full retreat!”

April 17, on Twitter: “LIBERATE MINNESOTA! … LIBERATE MICHIGAN! … LIBERATE VIRGINIA, and save your great 2nd amendment. It is under siege!”

The one consistency: Avoiding the blame

There’s one thing Trump was consistent about: Whether in public comments or his interviews with Woodward, he never took responsibility for the virus spreading out of control in the US.

July 21, to Woodward: “The virus has nothing to do with me. It’s not my fault. … China let the damn virus out.”

August 14, to Woodward: “Nothing more could have been done. Nothing more could have been done. I acted early. I acted early.”

Trump took a similar stance when asked, in press conferences and interviews, about the US’s failures to build up testing and prevent the deaths of more than 1,000 Americans a day to Covid-19.

March 13, at a press conference, when asked about tests: “I don’t take responsibility at all.”

July 28, in a televised interview, referring to 1,000 deaths a day: “It is what it is.”

Trump failed, and more people have died as a result

This is not just something that makes Trump look bad or exposes the bullshitter that he is. During a major crisis, particularly a pandemic, clear and transparent communication is one of the most important things leaders can do to keep the public and other officials not only informed but also ready to act. By consistently downplaying the threat of the virus, Trump worked to disarm one of the country’s biggest weapons — public action — against a major disease.

As Céline Gounder, an epidemiologist at New York University, told me in the early days of the pandemic, “You really need very strong leadership from the top.”

Trump’s downplaying of the virus extended not just to his public comments, but the actions taken by him and his administration, too. He’s called for less testing, arguing that more tests make the US look bad by revealing more cases — and his task force successfully pushed the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to, in effect, recommend less testing. His staff has simultaneously pushed the CDC to change scientific reports and studies because they might make Trump look bad by contradicting his evidence-less claims about Covid-19. He pushed the CDC out of a public leadership role after an official there made grim — but correct — comments about what to expect under the coronavirus.

Trump has even contradicted his own administration’s recommendations to push a rosy image of the country’s fight against Covid-19, demanding that states reopen quickly, before they met his administration’s recommendations, and getting parts of the public to think (wrongly) that masking is unhelpful or unnecessary, as his administration recommends public use of masks.

Now America is doing quite badly in its fight against Covid-19. The US hasn’t seen the most coronavirus deaths of all wealthy nations, but it’s in the bottom 20 percent for deaths since the pandemic began, and reports seven times the deaths as the median developed country. If the US had the same Covid-19 death rate as, say, Canada, 115,000 more Americans would likely be alive today.

Overall, Covid-19 cases in the US are now declining after the country’s recent surge. But that’s in large part because people have ignored much of what Trump has said: The public, as well as many cities, counties, and states, have embraced social distancing, particularly indoors, and masking — likely driving down new infections.

At the same time, the US’s number of cases and deaths remains unacceptably high; over the past week, nearly 900 Americans have died each day, on average, from Covid-19. Some US outbreaks continue to pop up as well, with states in the Midwest and South recently hit hard.

This is the reality Trump tried to downplay. And we’re stuck with those consequences — those infections, those deaths — no matter how the president tries to spin the pandemic.

Trump says US Covid-19 deaths would be low if you excluded blue states. That’s wrong.

President Donald Trump on Wednesday suggested that if you excluded blue states, America’s high number of Covid-19 deaths wouldn’t look bad compared to other countries. “If you take the blue states out, we’re at a level that I don’t think anybody in the world would be at,” he said at a White House press conference.

There are plenty of problems with this. It implies that the deaths of Americans who live in blue states don’t matter as much to Trump. It suggests that he doesn’t take any responsibility for deaths in the states that have a different political party in charge. And it’s generally absurd for Trump to act as though he’s not the president of the whole country.

But it’s also flatly false: When dividing states based on their 2016 votes for president, 11 of the top 20 states for Covid-19 deaths went for Trump. Overall, blue states fare worse with a death rate of 74 per 100,000 people, but red states still have a relatively high death rate, by global standards, of 49 per 100,000.

To put it another way: If you somehow “take the blue states out” and red states were their own country, they’d still be in the top 20 for Covid-19 deaths worldwide. Blue states would rank in the top five. Among only developed countries, blue states would be in the top five and red states would be in the top 10.

As a whole, the US is currently 11th worldwide and fifth among developed nations for Covid-19 deaths.

Individual states look even worse. If Republican-run Mississippi, with its Covid-19 death rate of 93 per 100,000, was a country, it would be in the top three globally, after San Marino and Peru. Democratic-run New Jersey and New York, with death rates of 181 and 168, respectively, would lead the entire world.

America’s coronavirus epidemic hit blue states particularly hard at first, especially in the Northeast. New Jersey, New York, and Massachusetts are still the top three states for Covid-19 deaths per 100,000 people. (Massachusetts has a Republican governor.)

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But the recent resurgence of Covid-19 hit red states hard too, unfortunately working to balance the scales in this grim statistic.

Trump’s comments are just another way that he’s tried to shirk responsibility for America’s Covid-19 epidemic as the national death toll nears 200,000, effectively shifting the blame to Democratic leaders. Previously, Trump told journalist Bob Woodward, “The virus has nothing to do with me. It’s not my fault. … China let the damn virus out.” Trump later told Woodward, “Nothing more could have been done.”

The reality is much more could have been done, but the president blundered at every step of the way. As cases climbed in the US, Trump abdicated problems with testing to local, state, and private actors; pushed states to reopen way too early to supposedly “LIBERATE” their economies; spoke negatively about masks while refusing to wear one himself; and backed unproven and even dangerous approaches to treating Covid-19, including injecting bleach. Each of these failures compounded and led to the current US death toll — and local and state governments, as hard as some tried, simply don’t have the resources to fight a pandemic on their own as the federal government flails.

The result: While the US hasn’t seen the most coronavirus deaths of all wealthy nations, it’s in the bottom 20 percent for deaths among them since the pandemic began, and reports seven times the deaths as the median developed country. If the US had the same Covid-19 death rate as, say, Canada, 115,000 more Americans would likely be alive today.

That’s on Trump, no matter how much he tries to shift the blame to blue states, China, and everyone else.


Correction: The Covid-19 death rates for both red and blue states in this article were originally underestimated. They’ve been fixed.

A woman in ICE detention says her fallopian tube was removed without her consent

Pauline Binam, a 30-year-old former detainee at Irwin County Detention Center in Ocilla, Georgia, had been in custody for about two years when she started having irregular menstrual bleeding. She feared that confinement was taking its toll on her body.

Binam, who came to the US from Cameroon when she was 2 years old, was being held at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detention center while awaiting deportation.

According to her attorney, Van Huynh, she consulted with medical staff at the facility who told her that the condition could be treated by a minor surgical procedure in which a doctor dilates the cervix and scrapes off the lining of the uterus.

Instead, the doctor informed her that he had also removed one of her fallopian tubes and that she could expect to have difficulty conceiving if she wanted to have more children.

Binam is now at the center of a congressional inquiry into allegations of a pattern of nonconsensual gynecological procedures, including hysterectomies, performed on detainees at Irwin in recent years. ICE ordered her deported on Wednesday morning, but she narrowly avoided deportation only after two Congress members got involved in her case.

“I’m often not surprised by things in the world of immigration nowadays,” Huynh said. “I was shocked and appalled, hearing Nurse [Dawn] Wooten confirming what Pauline had been telling me all through 2019.”

Binam says she had invasive surgery with no opportunity to consent

Before her procedure in August 2019, Binam gave verbal consent, indicating that she understood the course of treatment. But she was not given the opportunity to consent to the much more invasive and life-altering surgery she received while under anesthesia. She later expressed to a psychiatrist that she was “bothered” that she had one of her fallopian tubes removed when she was expecting a different procedure, according to medical records from August 2019, which Huynh shared with Vox.

“She was adamant that she did not give consent for them to do anything to her fallopian tubes,” Huynh said. “Had she been informed of what was being done with regard to her fallopian tubes, she would have been able to respond fairly to that.”

To this day, Binam, who has a US-citizen daughter, doesn’t know whether she’ll be able to conceive again, or whether it was medically necessary that her fallopian tube be removed.

Wooten, a nurse at the facility, was the first to raise concerns about the hysterectomies, which were performed by a gynecologist described as “the uterus collector” in a whistleblower complaint filed Monday.

Multiple attorneys have since come forward alleging that their clients had been subjected to hysterectomies and other gynecological procedures. Rep. Pramila Jayapal, vice chair of the House immigration subcommittee, said that, based on conversations with three of those attorneys, it appears that at least 17 detainees had such procedures.

Mahendra Amin, a gynecologist associated with Coffee Regional Medical Center and Irwin County Hospital in Georgia, allegedly performed at least some of the gynecological procedures, including hysterectomies, that were described in the whistleblower complaint and by the detainees’ attorneys. (His attorney has “vigorously” denied the allegations.)

It’s not clear whether he alone performed the procedure on Binam or cooperated with other doctors, but he is listed as the “ordering” doctor on a pathology report relating to her surgery.

The House Committee on Homeland Security is investigating the allegations in the complaint, and more than 170 members of Congress have called for a separate investigation from the Homeland Security inspector general’s office.

Testimony from Binam and other detainees at Irwin will likely be critical to those inquiries.

Binam was almost deported — just as she came forward with the allegations

Binam came to the US when she was 2 years old from Cameroon. She might have been eligible for the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals Program, which has allowed more than 700,000 unauthorized immigrants who came to the US as children to live and work in the country legally, if it weren’t for a shoplifting conviction from when she was 17. She paid a resulting fine without understanding the consequences: She was essentially admitting guilt to the charges against her.

A couple of years later, she was charged with larceny in a separate case from the first shoplifting incident and was offered a plea deal. She took the deal, again admitting her guilt, which qualified as a second strike on her record. Immigration officials consequently launched deportation proceedings against her and detained her at Irwin starting in October 2017.

Though a mother of a US citizen who had lived in the US for decades would typically be able to apply for deportation relief, Binam’s conviction and plea deal made her ineligible. In immigration court, she claimed that she feared returning to Cameroon, a place that she has never called home, and where there is ongoing conflict between the state and anglophone separatists. She was nevertheless ordered deported in an immigration court ruling that she is now appealing before the 11th Circuit.

Even though her appeal is still pending, ICE could have deported her at any moment. But it was only on Wednesday — in the wake of the whistleblower complaint’s publication and after Huynh sought an emergency pause on her deportation, identifying her as a victim of a nonconsensual gynecological procedure — that ICE finally tried to put her on a 9:30 am deportation flight out of Chicago.

“We were just shocked to find out that — just as we were learning about all these things that were coming out from Nurse Wooten — they wanted to put her on a flight and try to deport her as soon as possible,” Huynh said.

A petition that garnered more than 1,800 signatures overnight also sought to halt her deportation. But it wasn’t until Jayapal and Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) intervened that she was finally pulled off the plane at the last moment and sent to another immigration detention center, the Montgomery Processing Center in Conroe, Texas.

“There’s so much about immigration detention that takes away from a person’s life,” Huynh said. “It robbed her and her future because of what we’re learning today.”

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The new Covid-19 case surge in Europe, explained

VIENNA — “I have never seen an emergency room so crowded with very, very sick patients,” recalls Annalisa Malara, a doctor at Codogno Hospital in Lombardy, Italy. “We were literally overwhelmed by the number.”

That was late February, when Malara diagnosed Italy’s first case of locally transmitted Covid-19. An emotionally wrenching marathon of hospital shifts followed. Malara felt like she was constantly scrambling — to get enough oxygen to keep patients alive, to arrange transfers to other hospitals, to try and sleep so she could keep going. “We had to watch patients die,” she said. “It’s something that I think I can’t forget — I will never forget.”

More recently, Codogno Hospital has been Covid-19-free. But with case counts rising across the country and the continent again, Malara worries about a return to tragedy. Last week, she spent hours on the phone with colleagues to check on the status of their intensive care units. The situation was stable — though no one was sure how long that would last. “Everyone is very scared,” she confessed.

Only six months after Italy’s coronavirus crisis became a warning to the West about how quickly the virus could strain even the best-resourced health systems in the world, the World Health Organization warned Thursday of a “very serious situation” unfolding again across the agency’s European region, as weekly cases surpassed those reported during the first peak of the pandemic in March. This “should serve as a wake-up call for all of us,” Dr. Hans Kluge, the WHO regional director for Europe, said.

At the country level, the situation is no more reassuring. Italian officials are once again reporting around 1,500 new infections each day. That’s not yet anywhere near the last peak of 6,500 — but it’s a significant rise from 200 in early July. France and Spain, currently the hardest-hit countries in the region, are tracking an onslaught of cases even worse than their springtime peaks. On September 7, Spain became the first European country to count half a million total cases — more than 100,000 of them diagnosed in the two weeks prior. Days later, France recorded a jump of 10,000 new cases in one day. In Austria, between late April and mid-June, cases stayed below 100 for weeks, then gradually rose, with 768 reported on September 16.

Even Germany, an oft-cited example of coronavirus response excellence in Europe, has slowly seen its daily case count edge up, with nearly 2,000 infections — a doubling from August 1.

Yet one can almost forget there’s a pandemic going on in many parts of the continent.

Here in Vienna, where Covid-19 infections are rising so fast Germany just declared the city a high-risk hot spot, restaurants in my neighborhood are full of maskless people practically sitting elbow-to-elbow, kids are back in school and on the playgrounds, and opera season has reopened.

This disjuncture — between the rapidly rising case counts and relatively relaxed social life — has left some confused, and others complacent. When I showed up at a small garden brunch on Saturday, the hosts said they’d wondered whether they should cancel — worrying what their neighbors would think of the gathering — after they heard the news that morning that Austria had just recorded more than 800 new daily infections. Meanwhile, a 20-something university student told me that the coronavirus now feels like old news to her peers.

Part of the confusion has to do with the fact that the current phase in Europe — despite how bad it looks according to case numbers alone — has a different dynamic from the first. And that’s not only because Covid-19-related hospitalizations and deaths aren’t rising nearly as quickly as they did in the spring. This new dynamic is hard to see when you consider case counts or even hospitalizations alone.

“Even more than in March and April, we need to use [all the data] to paint a picture that’s complex and balanced,” said Edouard Mathieu, the Paris-based data manager of Oxford University’s Our World in Data project. Indeed, Europe’s latest coronavirus chapter is a much more nuanced story than the previous one — but it ultimately ends in the same place: a looming and very real risk of exponentially growing cases, leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths and the threat of new lockdowns.

Why cases alone can’t tell us about Europe’s new Covid-19 surge

There are a few important caveats to keep in mind when examining Europe’s surging coronavirus case count. The biggest one: You can’t “take the numbers today and place them on top of the earlier curve and assume it’s the same thing,” Flavia Riccardo, a researcher at the Italian National Institute of Health, told Vox.

Official case numbers are always an artifact of how testing is being done — and how testing is done has changed dramatically over the course of the pandemic. “Most cases we were seeing at the beginning were clearly symptomatic, because the indication was to test only symptomatic people,” Riccardo said. “Generally people were asked to stay home until they had more severe symptoms. That’s the opposite of what’s happening now.”

That broadening of the testing criteria for the coronavirus, along with an increased capacity to swab, has meant many more tests are being done, and more cases documented. In mid-March, German officials performed roughly 20,000 tests per day, according to Our World in Data. Now the number is a staggering 150,000. By the end of May, France and Spain were doing 37,000 and 44,000 daily tests, respectively; France now does 144,000 tests per day and Spain, 89,000.

This suggests two things: During the first wave of the pandemic, health officials only captured a fraction of the coronavirus infections in the population, so the real peak in the spring was much higher than the official graphs suggested. “We probably measured something like less than 10 percent of what happened,” Mathieu said. Second, the recent surge looks relatively large compared to the spring spike — but in reality, it’s probably smaller.

Still, the expansion in testing alone can’t fully explain the current case uptick, at least not in every country. That’s where another metric — test per case — becomes useful.

The test-per-case ratio tracks exactly what it sounds like: the number of tests being done divided by the confirmed cases. When the number drops too low it means an epidemic is likely out of control, since officials can no longer keep up with the demand for testing and see where new pockets of disease are spreading.

That’s what’s happening now in Europe — most notably Spain, Italy, and France — where cases are rising faster than can be explained by the increase in testing alone.

For example, back in June, Spanish officials did 130 tests for every confirmed case. As of September 12, that number had dropped to only nine tests per case. In Austria, the number of tests per confirmed case has fallen from 250 in early June to 20. A similar decline in the UK is proving to be worrisome. There, reports of an explosion in testing wait times and delays in people getting notified of positive results have sparked rumors of another lockdown.

Hospitalizations and deaths in Europe are rising — just at a slower rate than before

But there’s another aspect to the data we have to consider in order to understand the trends in Europe: how quickly infections, hospitalizations, and deaths are rising. Today, they are generally increasing at a much slower rate than in the spring (you can see that more clearly when you plot the data on a logarithmic scale). While this is good news, the trends are still worrisome.

Let’s focus on hospitalizations for a moment to understand why. Hospitalizations are often an intermediate step between rising cases and increased mortality. They can also signal the extent to which a health care system is strained and, when they start rising, provide a warning that more resources need to be marshaled quickly.

Earlier in the pandemic, there was a two-week lag between an uptick in cases and a rise in hospitalizations, said Maria DeJoseph Van Kerkhove, the WHO’s Covid-19 technical lead. And when hospitals became crowded with Covid-19 patients, that was followed by an increase in Covid-19 deaths.

Yet, for most of the summer, the surging Covid-19 caseload in European countries wasn’t accompanied by that growth in hospitalizations or deaths — a trend many attributed to the shift in transmission from mainly older to younger groups.

“Across Europe, there were a number of outbreaks in social settings — nightclubs, restaurants, and social gatherings,” Van Kerkhove told Vox. The median age of cases dropped. So even though cases overall grew, hospitalizations and deaths were down — and that makes sense because younger people are more likely to experience mild or symptom-free infections.

Covid-19 demographics are changing again — shifting back into older populations. In France, for example, 4 percent of tests performed on people age 60 and older are now positive — a doubling from two weeks ago. By September 10, there was a 44 percent increase in the proportion of people over age 75 who have been diagnosed with the virus compared to the previous week.

In Italy, the median age of cases went down from nearly 60 in February to 30 at the end of August. It’s back up to 40 — and Riccardo thinks it’ll rise again as outbreaks move from social settings like nightclubs into households again.

So it has taken time for hospitalizations and deaths to start rising again — but they are now in France and Spain, Van Kerkhove said.

Mathieu walked me through the situation in France, which he’s been tracking. In July, cases started increasing in a way that couldn’t be explained by testing alone — albeit slowly, doubling every two weeks instead of every 3.5 days, like in March. A rise in hospitalizations didn’t follow immediately.

It’s become clear that was because younger people were catching the virus. By mid-August, “the virus started to affect older people, and then a few weeks later, hospitalizations have started to increase,” said Mathieu. By September 10, the French public health ministry reported that new Covid-19 hospitalizations were growing in all but one region of the country.

“Now we are starting to see deaths increase,” Mathieu added. In late July, there were 10 Covid-19 deaths per day. Now, there are 30. “This whole process took almost two months instead of [several] weeks.”

The exact same trend is playing out now in Spain, he added. “In March, the number of deaths was doubling every two to three days in Spain,” he said. “The current rate is much slower — deaths are doubling on average every two weeks.” But they’re still doubling.

Even if it’s happening more slowly this time, it’s still exponential growth that could require more lockdowns

There’s one last factor to consider in the slowing Covid-19 death rate — and it’s good news. Doctors are better at diagnosing and treating the disease than they were at the start of the pandemic, so patients are more likely to survive.

“Governments like to congratulate themselves because they are not seeing the level of hospitalizations and deaths as we saw at peak — and the reason for that is not because Covid isn’t still burning in the same way,” said Lawrence Gostin, a Georgetown University global expert. “We’re catching it earlier and treating it better. So you see lower death rates because of earlier detection, better treatment, and elderly and vulnerable were either exposed and died or they learned the lesson and are staying away.”

These treatments include cheap and readily available drugs like dexamethasone and hydrocortisone, which can cut the risk of dying in very sick patients by a third.

While that’s certainly comforting, when cases start to rise and resources to deal with patients — drugs, personal protective equipment, beds, staff — don’t grow fast enough to meet demand, “your fatality rate will increase again,” Devi Sridhar, professor and chair of Global Public Health at the University of Edinburgh, warned.

And that’s when the specter of lockdowns starts reappearing. “If you see hospitals filling up and ICU beds full, [politicians will] have no choice but to implement some kind of lockdown unless you want your health system to collapse,” Sridhar added. “You can’t have people dying in hospital doorways because they can’t get access to oxygen.”

Sridhar wasn’t at all surprised that Israel just imposed a new lockdown, or that Madrid — where doctors are calling the situation “March in slow motion” — is also resorting to lockdown measures. She also predicts there will be more to come for Europe — that we’ll “pay for summer holidays with winter lockdowns.”

“Every country was under pressure to lift restrictions as soon as possible,” she said. “What’s happened is a muddling of economic and health objectives — we’re not doing either properly.”

Mathieu finds this frustrating since it was so predictable. It’s “exactly what happened the first time: People failed to think in terms of exponential growth.”

During phase one of the pandemic, coronavirus outbreaks proliferated exponentially, meaning an uptick in cases that appeared slow at first rapidly accelerated, outstripping countries’ abilities to manage them. Governments were forced to use the only instrument they had to deal with unchecked Covid-19 spread — one that didn’t require an exponential increase in doctors or hospital beds, Mathieu pointed out: the lockdown.

This time, the growth is happening even more slowly — we have an even better warning. Yet, Mathieu said, “There’s a weird benchmark thing going on where some people think there’s a threshold of terribleness and as long as we’re under that threshold, we shouldn’t worry about it” — even though it’s still exponential growth.

Take France, for example. While the country’s death rate is nowhere near the last peak, when 1,000 people were dying each day from Covid-19, “30 could soon be 50 or 100. And that’s dangerous for a mathematical reason … exponential growth.”

If hospitalizations in France keep increasing exponentially at the current rate of 30 percent per week, for example, it’ll take only eight weeks to reach April levels again. “For now, every line is going up exponentially in France — hospitalizations, ICU admissions, death — even though for now the absolute numbers are still very low.”

“We need to strike a balance,” he added, “between telling people it’s not the same thing [as the first coronavirus peak], it’s not as bad, it’s slower — but we should do something about it.”

Oliver Johnson, a professor of information theory and the director of the Institute for Statistical Science at the University of Bristol, is also worried that people have already forgotten about exponential growth. “Two, three weeks ago, [people were saying] it’s just cases. Now, people are saying it’s just hospitalizations. And it’s like okay, well — what’s the next stage after that?”

Now we’re heading into winter, when social distancing is more challenging and people are more likely to gather indoors, where the virus has a much better chance of spreading. “We have reason to believe these kinds of viruses spread better when it’s cold. And if you start counting even to Christmas, it starts to look quite scary,” Johnson added. “My worry is that it’s a long winter.”

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Noam Chomsky’s Green New Deal

This story is part of Covering Climate Now, a global journalism collaboration strengthening coverage of the climate story.


Several books on the Green New Deal have been released in the past year or two, but none boasts a more illustrious set of authors than Climate Crisis and the Green New Deal, out Tuesday from Robert Pollin and Noam Chomsky.

Pollin teaches economics and co-directs the Political Economy Research Institute (PERI) at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. He has been writing about climate economics and green growth for years, as well as consulting with various nonprofits and governments (he advised Obama’s Energy Department for a few years) on policy and poverty reduction.

Chomsky, of course, has been a notable intellectual presence on the left since the mid-20th century. He’s an analytic philosopher, one of the founders of cognitive science, and a giant in the field of linguistics, alongside his notable contributions as a historian, essayist, and social critic. The author of more than 100 books, he is known as one of the most cited authors alive.

The book is structured around a series of questions, prompts, and discussion points from political scientist C.J. Polychroniou (credited as a co-author), and despite its compact length, it is a sweeping inquiry into the nature of climate change, its relationship to capitalism, what a global Green New Deal might look like, and the effects it may have on politics.

I reached Pollin and Chomsky by Skype to chat about some of the book’s themes, including capitalism, green investment, and the prospects for social solidarity in the face of rising chaos.

Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

David Roberts

Naomi Klein’s climate book This Changes Everything famously argued that consumer capitalism and climate change are effectively one and the same, that the one is the inevitable consequence of the other. Is that something unique to capitalism, or is it just human nature to be shortsighted?

Noam Chomsky

We should recognize that if global warming is an automatic consequence of capitalism, we might as well say goodbye to each other. I would like to overcome capitalism, but it’s not in the relevant time scale. Global warming basically has to be taken care of within the framework of existing institutions, modifying them as necessary. That’s the problem we face.

When we turn to human nature, the first thing to remember is that we know essentially nothing about it. It’s what I work on all the time. There’s a few small areas where there’s some understanding of cognitive human nature and very little about the rest. It’s all surmise.

If it is true that human nature is incapable of dealing with problems developing over a longer term, if that’s a fact about the way humans are structured and organized, we can, again, say goodbye to one another. So let’s assume it’s not the case.

Then we work within a set of parameters. The fundamental institutions are not going to change in time. Human nature allows the possibility of thinking about what’s going to happen in a couple of decades, even centuries. Assume all that.

Then we turn to solutions. And there are solutions within that set of assumptions. So let’s proceed and work on them. If those assumptions happen to be wrong, tough for the human species. It’s what we have.

David Roberts

What historical analogues demonstrate the ability of capitalism’s institutions to reform themselves with the sort of speed and scale we’re talking about to limit climate change? I know we always go back to World War II, but there are obvious disanalogies — for one thing, there’s no enemy with a face. What prompts your optimism that the logic and momentum of capitalism are subject to change this big and fast?

Noam Chomsky

The analogue to World War II says that we easily have the resources to deal with this within existing institutions. Then comes the question of, is there an analogue in human history to facing a problem of destruction of the species within several generations? Answer: no. We’re in a new situation.

Actually, we’ve been in a new situation for 75 years. As soon as the nuclear age began, it was evident that humans had reached the intelligence and capacity to effectively destroy human life on Earth. That’s what we’ve been living with for 75 years. What wasn’t known at the time, but is now understood, is that it was also the beginning of what the World Geological Organization calls the Anthropocene, a period in which human activity is having very significant and deleterious effects on the environment.

So for 75 years, we’ve been living with a unique situation in human history. We have the means to destroy organized human life on Earth. That’s never been true before.

We also have the means to overcome that. World War II showed that with existing institutions, it was possible to amass resources on a scale well beyond what is required today. Bob’s work shows that very effectively. So let’s use what’s available. And let’s make the assumption that human beings are capable of looking beyond tomorrow.

David Roberts

A naive view of history might say that as the fruits of science become clear, there’s a sort of inevitability to greater democratic organization and complexity. But the last decade has seen a white revanchist backlash across the developed world, lots of places reverting to crude nationalism and authoritarianism. It certainly seems to throw a wrench in the notion that we’re on a one-way road to greater enlightenment.

Noam Chomsky

What history teaches us is that we have no idea. There are all kinds of lessons. Just take Germany. In the 1920s, Germany was the peak of Western civilization, in the sciences and the arts. And if you look at political science literature in the 1920s, the Weimar Republic was regarded as the peak of democratic achievement. Ten years later, it was the worst place in human history. And years after that, getting back to where it was.

Those are the lessons of history, namely, we don’t know.

Now, if you want to ask what’s happening now, I think we’ve been hit by an assault, the neoliberal assault, which has been devastating. Its basic design leads to high concentrations of wealth and power in unaccountable hands and massive growth of basically predatory institutions, most of them financial. That’s led to feelings across much of the world of anger, resentment, and distrust in institutions, which has some justification. And it’s fertile territory for demagogues; we’ve seen them arise.

But it’s also an opportunity to counter, and we’re seeing that too, everywhere from the streets of America to mutual aid groups in Brazil. Humans are capable of lots of things.

David Roberts

On the left these days, there’s a push for more public ownership in energy. But across the world, it seems like energy markets are already some of the least capitalist. What’s the right level of public involvement in the sector?

Robert Pollin

Globally, 90 percent of fossil fuel assets are publicly owned. So if we say the problem of climate change is private ownership of fossil fuel assets, and we need to transition to public ownership, well, we’re 90 percent of the way there! So that clearly is not a solution.

The cost of generating a unit of energy from solar power, wind power, and geothermal power is now fully competitive, at parity. Trump’s own Energy Department statistics show that, for a kilowatt of electricity, solar is 6.3 cents. Onshore wind is 6.0 cents, geothermal 4.7 cents. Now, coal with carbon capture is 13 cents. Nuclear is 9.3 cents. This is from the Trump administration.

The issue is, how do we mobilize investments adequately to transition into these already affordable energy-generating processes, and energy efficiency? As Noam mentioned, yes, we have a massive challenge, but it is not on the scale of World War II, at least not yet. My own estimate on a global model, we are looking at something like 2.5 to 3 percent of GDP per year, investing in renewable energy, transitioning to electricity, energy efficiency, and reforestation.

As Noam said, we don’t have time to totally overturn capitalism. We have to get to net zero emissions in no less than 30 years, and capitalism is still going to be around then. So we have to think about ways through which we can incentivize this transition that will also be egalitarian, in the sense that it will open up opportunities for small-scale enterprises. It’s going to generate jobs, and we have to make sure those are good jobs, union jobs. There will be jobs lost in the fossil fuel sector, so we have to create a just transition. But that’s all within the institutions of capitalism.

David Roberts

One longstanding political debate is over how to pay for things, or whether to pay for them. A lot of progressives these days are pushing the idea that the only limit on federal spending is inflation. Where do you come down on that question?

Robert Pollin

You’re talking about modern money theory — I don’t know if Noam has any interest in this question. [laughs]

My own financing model does make use of printing money, just not 100 percent, all the time. I had a piece in the American Prospect last December called “How to pay for zero emissions economy,” and I combined revenue sources. I have a carbon tax; 75 percent of the carbon tax is rebated back to the lower half of the income distribution, so it’s egalitarian. We take money out of the military budget. And then the rest, yeah, I say the Fed can print the money — just like right now they’re printing $4 trillion, minimum, at the drop of a hat. And I’m talking about maybe $50 billion. It’s a minuscule amount.

When this article was published, one of the main proponents of MMT, Randall Wray, somebody I’ve known for a long time, attacked my articles. “How dare you talk about paying, even $1!”

I said, I have 50 percent of the public money coming out of this pool called debt monetization, but there’s limits to that. If we’re going to pay for the green New Deal 100 percent by printing money, and on top of that Medicare-for-all, and on top of that everything else that gets us to full employment, we’re talking about a very dangerous policy tool. When do we know, exactly, we’re going to get to high inflation? And once we get there, all of a sudden, are we supposed to flip a switch and go from zero tax revenue to $4 trillion?

The proposal Noam and I have in the book relies significantly on the Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank printing money — just not 100 percent.

David Roberts

Environmental justice has moved to the center of the climate discussion. What’s your degree of hope that, in the face of fear and anxiety and panic, we’re going to transition compassionately, in an egalitarian way?

Noam Chomsky

I don’t see any contradiction. I’m old enough to remember when the Black maids all disappeared from the middle-class households and got good jobs in factories for military production. That had an egalitarian effect. It wasn’t the purpose of it, but it had that consequence. Now we can make it the purpose of things like, say, developing efficient mass transportation, instead of jamming up highways with cars. That contributes to justice and makes people’s lives better, especially poor people.

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The effect of pollution is radically oriented toward harming the poor and deprived. When the Trump administration removes pollution controls from factories, who does that hurt? It’s people living near the polluting factories because they can’t afford to live anywhere else. If we end that, we’re helping them. So there’s just a lot of [egalitarian] things that happen almost automatically as the result of the Green New Deal policy, and it can be modified to make it more so.

One of the major issues of climate justice is dealing with the global South — the people who didn’t really contribute to the problem but are now suffering more from it than anyone else. That’s been discussed since the Paris negotiations, but the Republican Party has refused to provide even minimal aid that would be necessary in poor countries.

In India, the temperatures are going extremely high. Well, you need air conditioners. There are cheap, highly polluting air conditioners and there are slightly more expensive, efficient, non-polluting ones. The amount of money that would be required from the rich countries to provide Indian people with decent air conditioners would be almost undetectable. A tiny sum would make enormous difference in people’s lives. There are things like that all over the place.

David Roberts

What do you think about the degrowth movement, the idea that the only way to stabilize the climate in the long term is to cut back on consumption?

Robert Pollin

I’ve been in debates with these people — I have a lot of respect for them and fundamentally share their values. I’m sure I myself could live much more modestly than I do.

But affluent people in rich countries living a high lifestyle do not represent the standard of living for 95 percent of the world’s population. So when we say we have to live more simply, I don’t think it’s fair to apply that to everybody on planet Earth. In addition to that, people are going to keep consuming energy, and we should be in favor of delivering more energy, affordably, so that people can get around and have electricity and have a better standard of living.

The fact of the matter is, degrowth is not a solution, just in terms of simple mathematics. Right now the globe generates about 33 billion tons of CO2 emissions. Let’s say we cut global GDP by 10 percent, which would be a bigger depression than the 1930s. What happens? We cut emissions by 10 percent, from 33 billion tons to 30 billion tons. It’s no solution at all.

David Roberts

It’s not difficult to imagine the right responding to the undeniable reality of climate change with increased nationalism and hostility to immigration. How confident are you that climate change won’t spark a global wave of “green fascism”?

Noam Chomsky

I think the number of people who would think like that is so small that they really don’t matter. If they want to build themselves a gated community up in the Rockies, it’s not going to change much. It’s not gonna hurt the situation. It’s the general population that has to be reached.

Take a look at polls. Turns out that among Republicans, about 20 percent think that climate change is an urgent problem. That’s where the problem is, not with a group of reactionaries who think, I’ll save myself somehow, I’ll take a spaceship and live on Mars. The problem is the great mass of the population who are being deluded by constant propaganda. That’s a problem that can be solved by education, by organization, by reasonable forms of activism. That’s the way big changes have taken place in the world.

Just take our own country. We’re a very different country from what we were, say, 50 or 60 years ago. You go back to the 1960s, the United States had anti-miscegenation laws that were so extreme the Nazis refused to adopt them. We had federal laws in place that required that federal housing be effectively denied to African Americans. Women were not legally considered equal peers until 1975. Things that were considered normal at that time would be considered so outlandish now, you can barely even talk about them.

It didn’t happen by a miracle. And it didn’t mean convincing a couple of white supremacist reactionaries. It meant changing the nature of consciousness in the country. The Black Lives Matter protests created the biggest social movement in history, quickly, because the background had already been established. The same kind of background made it imaginable for the New York Times to publish the 1619 series. …

Awareness and consciousness can change, pretty fast, and that can happen on this too. It better happen, or we’re all in for it.