New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio spoke to POLITICO Monday as part of a series of interviews with Democrats seeking to challenge President Donald Trump in 2020.
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[More Coverage: de Blasio on fried Twinkies, the ‘corruption of Rome’ | de Blasio says Bernie would have won in 2016]
Here are key excerpts from the hour-long conversation:
On how Democrats can win
"I think the reality is at this point when the Democratic Party is identified as the party of working people, when it has a clear, progressive, populist economic message, it is not only, from my point of view, philosophically, morally the right place to be, it is also the way to win elections. I think the 2016 election is the, unfortunately, the object lesson for the wrong way to do it. Because I think the party’s message and values were very unclear to a lot of American voters, thus many people stayed home, many Democrats stayed home."
On endorsing Hillary Clinton
"Personally, I believed that she would be a very effective leader and that the ideas she put forward, she would have some real understanding of how to put into action. I also — as is clear from WikiLeaks — have pleaded with the Hillary campaign at the highest levels to address the sense of unfairness that people feel. To come out with a bolder economic vision. And honestly, that was a futile endeavor. So, I don’t think it was wrong to say that she was a candidate that I admired, respected, thought could do a good job. But I think that the entire party failed to present a vision and a message that could win that election."
On whether he thinks Bernie Sanders could have beaten Trump
"In my heart, yes, I do. I think, you know, hindsight is 20/20. But I think when we look at it now, that was a moment where there was such desire for change. We were in the process, as Democrats, of losing a lot of our folks again, either to Trump or … many more to stay at home. And we had to excite them. And I think in retrospect, he offered a vision that could have done that."
On why Sanders supporters should vote for him
"I think the world of Bernie, but I would say, I’m someone who has put these ideas into action, consistently and effectively, to a really tough environment. And I’m someone who can build the kind of coalition we’re going to need to win. So, I think there’s a governmental argument and a political argument. The governmental argument is — and I respect every legislator, I once upon a time was a local legislator, respect them all — but being an executive is just a different thing. Against some real opposition, we achieved a series of things in New York, whether you’re talking about pre-K for all, our massive affordable housing program or things like a rent freeze, which we had the power to do. It’s never been done before. Legal services to stop evictions and lower evictions by landlords. And obviously everything on policing: ending stop and frisk, which at the time was highly controversial. Showing that the city was actually getting safer, we got rid of the punitive type of policing. Doing that as executive is a different reality of what a legislator does.
…And then politically, there’s literally no place more diverse on earth. The only way I won to begin with was building an extraordinarily diverse coalition. You know, I ran for mayor against a very diverse field. The reason I won was I was able to win not just substantial support but majorities in communities represented by other candidates because I had a message that cut across a whole lot of demographic realities and that people can unite around. We’re going to need that as Democrats again."
On working with Republicans
"Look, I’ve negotiated with all sorts of forces to get things done, which is why we’re able to get things done, including our state legislature, including what was for years a state Senate Republican majority. We got things done like pre-K for all, despite having a state Senate Republican majority, and we have to work with them to get it done.
I think what is really happening now is the solutions are more about political change than they are about negotiation. If you look at how dug in the Republicans are in the House and the Senate, maybe on some issues there will be some common ground in some areas for negotiation. But on many levels, only political change is going to move them, including political impact from their grassroots up. And I think that’s an area — bluntly — Democrats have not done a particularly good job at. I think the model of the presidency, once upon a time, was much more going out and educating people, moving them, moving hearts and minds, changing the way people think about issues. That is a template that worked for Democrats in sort of the glory days of the Democratic Party. And I think we have to go back to that because there’s lots of working people in America who are truly fed up with the status quo."
On his gun-control position
"I think background checks, I think banning assault weapons, and I think, you know, from my point of view…you can protect the Second Amendment and still put a series of protections in place…It’s about a handful of senators and making their lives a lot tougher. Which right now, and I’ve been open about this, the Democratic Party, understandably, is fixated on Trump, but it’s too fixated on Trump. Understandably, it wants to pursue impeachment, but sometimes to the exclusion — at least to the public eye — of other issues.
Here’s a moment where we should lean in deeply to the gun-safety issue, particularly in those states where those key Senate elections are happening. And I feel very strongly — I think there’s a lot of historical precedent for it — you’re going to have some senators who are not going to be able to withstand that."
On Obama’s legacy
"Affordable Care Act, clearly the biggest achievement and a stunning achievement. And I understand he sacrificed intensely to get to it, and I appreciate that he was extraordinarily persistent. I think a lesser leader would have given up. And it’s had a tremendously positive impact on tens of millions of Americans, and it has been one of the most important steps in addressing income inequality in decades. We gotta go a lot farther. But I think we have to acknowledge that extraordinary achievement.
In terms of what was missed, two things to me come out as lessons. And I can understand, again, what he was up against. But the first is to front-load labor legislation in the event that — whether it’s me or anyone else — there’s a Democratic president and a Democratic Senate. Achieving fundamental change on labor is essential.
…The second lesson, which is not just from the Obama years, I think it’s several decades, is to refocus on the state legislatures. Because what we have learned is that the presidency does not exist in a vacuum, if you will. It’s not just about what the president does with their executive powers or what they do with the Congress. We saw it in the Obama years, we saw it in the Clinton years. We lost ground in state legislatures, and we paid for it intensely, because even when federal action could be taken, in many ways it was undercut at the state level."
On Ronald Reagan’s impact
"I think Reagan was a singular figure, much though I disagree with him profoundly, I will give him, you know, tremendous sense of how to use that bully pulpit. And he did spark foundational change. You know, from my point of view, in the wrong direction. But it was foundational. You have to give him that. And I think there is something objective about that fact that, I don’t like what he did, but it had a much bigger impact than just what he did in his eight years. He sort of laid the foundation for something bigger."
On racism in the Trump era
"That’s been produced by Trump. It just has been. There’s a deep wellspring of racism in America. It’s always been that way. But Trump has tapped into it, normalized it, enhanced it, uplifted it in a way that has now led to pure violence. And I do think leadership matters. I think leadership is calling for unity and respect. People hear that and feel it. Leadership’s dividing us, and they pick up on that too.
…I’m in the school of this party that says: ‘There are some Trump voters who are never going to want to hear from me or anyone else who believes in a multicultural society. And there are other Trump voters who voted out of economic frustration and anger at the status quo, who I think can be brought back into our coalition. But only if they hear a message that’s about their lives.’ I believe if you say to a lot of those folks, ‘We’re going to tax the wealthy who created so much of this status quo. We’re going to do things that actually reach your family, like higher wages, better benefits, better health care, pre-K for children.’ Things like that matter to a lot of those voters, matter to voters across the spectrum. And if you make very clear that you’re not working on behalf of the establishment, that’s what a lot of them want to hear, including they want to hear that you’re pro labor."
On NAFTA
"I want to remind people, look at those states where Democrats lost. Two glaring characteristics: a lot of union members who drifted away from the Democratic Party and those were the states that NAFTA, in particular, hit hard, the loss of manufacturing jobs. I am stridently anti-NAFTA. I’m saying our party should run the other way from the new NAFTA, have nothing to do with it. Change the entire nature of how we go about trade."
On hate speech on social media
"I’m not listening for (Trump’s) moral guidance on what social media companies should do. But I think it’s right to say we’re in a situation that we’ve never experienced before in human history, where information is flowing in ways that of course must be kept free, but with realities that are creating, you know, real social dislocations that we have to address. And the portrayal of violence is a real issue. I don’t know how to change that, I honestly don’t. I think it’s a lot clearer how to address hate speech, for example, if you’re one of the companies that is trying to set standards. I think there’s — you can actually have some objective standards and relevant content to stand for. And I think violent videos is a tougher, a tougher venue."
On why he didn’t endorse some New York progressives
"I’m very, very comfortable as a member of the progressive wing of this party pushing progressive ideas and trying to change the party as a whole. I look at individual races, and some I think it makes sense to get involved in. And some, I don’t. And also, when you’re a mayor of a city, it adds a whole other element. I don’t just go at it as someone with an ideological view, I have to think about a lot of other factors.
But to me, I think the Queen’s DA race is a great example of this. The debate already created the outcome in the sense that, you know, for a while we didn’t know who it would be. On one level, it was clear whoever it was going to be was going to have to make a series of changes because the conversation had already and the election process had already taken it that way."
On Joe Biden
"I don’t have a relationship with Joe Biden, I haven’t worked with him in the past…I think a whole lot of swing voters right now are so appalled by Trump that they would be very open to a Democrat, whether that Democrat is more progressive or more moderate. But what I fear with Biden is…I’m not hearing an inspirational vision of change. I’m hearing something that sounds like the status quo most of the time.
"And I want to know that any leader can give a persuasive argument that they can make change. So, you can mouth the words, people see through that pretty quickly. How do you prove it? Again, what I bring to the table is, I said I was gonna do a whole set of things in New York. I did them. They constitute real change. I’m offering a very consistent vision from that experience for the country, showing how I want to take what I did in the nation’s largest city and expand it out to the country. You don’t find people saying about me, ‘Oh, you know, he doesn’t believe those things or he’s never done them or he’s just come up with it now because it’s convenient.’ The problem for Biden is, how is he going to convince people that he is going to break this American status quo that a huge percentage of voters don’t want to continue?"
On whether Kamala Harris is a moderate
"Honestly, don’t know her well enough. And, you know, I’ve seen her say different things that I’m not clear ultimately what her vision is. So, I struggle to give you a clear definition. Some people I think, are very easily defined. I don’t know exactly in her case."
On the value of debates
"Debates are one of those, you know, they’re the ultimate comparison shopping…I think in the case of Biden — again, this is not me being a pundit, this is me being a candidate, saying this — he had two chances to help people see a vision that might actually be motivating, and I don’t think he did that in either case.
…We have to have this debate to sort it out. And it’s going to be decided by the voters in the primaries. But it’s also like this is — to use the sports analogy — this is the preseason. Like, if you are not ready for the much tougher stuff up ahead, you know, if you can’t do it at this level, you’re not going to do it later on. So, for him, he’s going to be asked these tough questions, increasingly. If he can’t answer them, then how is he going to be the nominee?"
On making the next debate
"I don’t know what people took from that debate yet. But there’s a lot of time on the clock. And the standards are very straightforward, and my job is to hit those standards by August 27.
…I’m not going to do hypotheticals, my job right now is to get there."
On Medicare for All
"You know, I use a bad example, but I think it illustrates the point. I say bad example because it’s not an issue example in the same way. But I think it’s a wonderful example of social change: How did this become a country that embraces overwhelmingly marriage equality? If you remember that trajectory, and you look at the historical days, it is breathtaking how fast it went from not even civil union laws being acceptable politically to a lot of folks, through a few states starting to make change and a leader starting to speak out, and the way it moved, with, I think, a lot of help from the media and a lot of help from the cultural center.
But opinion is formed through these debates. And I think it’s fair to say this is the most energetic argument you’ve seen for universal health care in the history of this party. Because it’s not just being made by one Bernie Sanders up against the mega frontrunner, Hillary. It’s now being made by a lot of us. And it’s a fair fight for the first time. And I think it’s part of how you get the transformation."
On what white America doesn’t understand about being a minority
"I think it was the end of 2014, when I felt it was very important to speak to my city about the changes we would make, even though people were in tremendous amount of pain of that moment because of what happened to Eric Garner and what was happening with the legal process as well. And I surfaced this reality in my own family, having a conversation with Dante about how he had to comport himself and deal with the realities … and there was controversy at that moment.
…But there was a whole lot of people who also felt it was a conversation that had to be had because millions and millions of Americans had a conversation with their kid. And it was somehow missed by the majority culture that that was a reality. And by the way, majority culture, if the shoe was on the other foot, they’d be having that conversation with their kids. So it was time to surface it."
On making that case to white voters
"I would argue that that process of explaining to people, for example, imagine the others punish you on the other foot. You bring up your child, you put all your love and support into your child, and your child is stopped by a police officer regularly or followed in the store. Or if your child, you know, if a police officer came up to your child, that you’d have to worry about what might happen next because of a whole lot of history? I think a lot of people actually could get that.
We’re not saying, we’re not calling anyone a racist who hasn’t proven that they’re racist, right? But we’re saying there’s racism pervading our society, and we’ve got to surface it. And you have that conversation enough times, it changes things."
On Mayor Pete Buttigieg
"I don’t think there’s any comparison, two different people. He started very early. I started very late. You know, he developed a substantial fundraising base. Again, my message is not going to be one that appeals to wealthy donors. It’s just not.
Q: "And that’s something Buttigieg is doing?"
A: "Well, he’s getting a ton of wealthy donors, isn’t he? I mean, look, I made a decision. And this has been evolving for years now for me, I think I originally experienced the more traditional politics. And my philosophy was always thoroughly progressive, but I thought sort of, ‘Oh, this is the way politics works. And you gotta deal with these realities.’ And I think more and more, we’re all being liberated from that. And the approach I’m taking, the message I have, it’s not everyone it’s going to attract … and someone with a more moderate message will.
So I just don’t, I don’t get lost in that comparison. You know, I think the things I’m talking about are the things that the majority of the Democratic Party wants and what the country needs. I’ve got to find a way to get the message out one way or another and break through. Other people have done it before. I’ve got to find a way as well."
Q: "You do have wealthy people donating to your campaign though."
A: "Sure. But there’s a difference between a message that is going to attract large numbers of wealthy donors, which some other folks have, and what I’m saying, which obviously is going to disqualify a lot of them. And I assure you it has."
On grassroots fundraising
"The only way that someone like me ultimately gets there is with an overwhelmingly grassroots campaign. I think there’s practical realities of, if you’re getting started and you don’t have that kind of apparatus, of course, you’re going to have to put some resources together, but the way of the future for me and for others like me is to overwhelmingly go in that direction."
Q: "Do you think at that point that means weaning off money from real estate?"
A: "We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it, but I think that is the way of the future."
On politicians using wealthy people as aspirational figures
"It’s a lie. You know, very few people can get there. And it’s kind of an American mythology that was charming once, but now it’s been weaponized to, you know, tell people, ‘Stay where you are, and maybe someday you’ll get there,’ when it’s an overt lie. And it supports the further empowerment of those who are winning. So, I know it’s unsettling for some, for sure
…If folks felt the economy was working for them, they felt like they actually had decent prospects, you never would have seen a Donald Trump. He said, ‘I’m going to disrupt everything,’ and people wanted it to be disrupted. Why aren’t we saying we’re going to disrupt everything? Because we need to."